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Indy Car Racing Media Conference

Open Wheel Racing Topics:  Indy Racing League

Indy Car Racing Media Conference

Robert Clarke
Steve Horne
March 7, 1995

Indy Racing League

JOHN PROCIDA: We're going to change things up a little now and we're going to open the floor for Robert Clarke with Honda Performance. And as you know, Honda is entering its second season of IndyCar Racing. And we go over to the floor.

Q. Do you feel you're better off with let's say a team that is just getting itself started and maybe -- I don't know, the team you had last year -- because a there's a little less pressure to meet, you know, the immediate standards?

ROBERT CLARKE: Well, I think the -- of course working with the Rahal/Hogan team last year, they're a top notch team that has a great potential and also has a great need to perform well on every event. And because of that we found ourselves in a difficult situation because the engine was not performing quite to their expectations nor our own. Of course they made the decision last year to move over to the Mercedes Ilmor engine, but we decided internally that we needed to align ourselves with a team that maybe had a similar growth goal that we had for this year. And I think we found that within the Tazman group. They have a very professional approach as we feel we do. They have their sites set for a very high goal which we do. And I think that the two of us can grow at a very quick rate and achieve each other's expectations.

Q. Can you take us through the evolutionary process over the course of the winter? This engine obviously sounds very different and it performs very differently. Is this a clean sheet of paper at the end of the season and starting over again or what was the process to get to where you're at now.

ROBERT CLARKE: No, this is actually the same base engine that we used last year. We made a decision toward the end of last year that we would continue development of that engine as well as begin development on a new engine, because we knew where this engine was, baseline performance. We felt it was a good base to tryout a lot of other ideas we still had before we applied those to our new engines. And, in fact, many of those new ideas that we had resulted in very nice improvements. And the result is what Andre had on the track down in Miami. There's actually still a couple of little small tweaks that we have planned for that engine before we bring our new engine in.

Q. Can you give us a little bit -- where did you find a few things that, you know, that's brought this engine along that weren't there last year? Where did you find them, in the turbo area -- I mean, what area did you find them without giving away any secrets?

ROBERT CLARKE: Sure. The biggest area is in induction. As we expected, it was the area that we were the weakest in; working with the methanol fuel which is something that we had no experience in from our Formula I and Formula II days. And the whole intake system, you know, from the turbo to the plennum (sic) to the injectors to the intake ports and the head design, all of that we found a great deal of improvement gains.

Q. There's talk that you guys are working on an aluminum block engine that's going to come out maybe by Nazareth or certainly by Indianapolis, is that time frame accurate?

ROBERT CLARKE: Yes, it is. You know, the engine has been in development. It's -- we had our first on-track test a week before last at Firebird and then we tested at PIR the early part of last week and the engine did well. So I think we can maintain the schedule that we have targeted.

Q. When did you guys decide to go aluminum block route? Because I guess there's been some talk last year -- you know, I'm not real privy to all of it but you all seemed kind of adamant at one point about staying with the iron block. I mean, when did you decide that aluminum block was the way to go?

ROBERT CLARKE: I would say probably around July or August. Actually, the original engine started out in aluminum. And we had some durability concerns and considering that it was our first year in racing that we had a lot to figure out about these IndyCar engines was when we actually went back to an iron block because we had a lot of experience with that.

Q. What was it like in your compound, you know, over the weekend, I mean, just from your vantage point with your guys and the way that engine did obviously perform compared to, like, maybe a lot of places last year; was it a totally different feel. (LAUGHTER.)

ROBERT CLARKE: Yes, it was. You know, based upon our testing at Firebird and at PIR over the winter season, we felt that we were getting pretty close to the competition. And when Andre went out for practice on Friday he surprised all of us by showing us that we were definitely there and even more so. So it was quite a thrill, yes.

Q. We're talking, you know, with your -- obviously, your major manufacturing plant is in the middle of Ohio, and of course Steve Horne with all that, you know, great experience, what does he bring to the program that perhaps, you know, a more established team with more sponsor pressure to within gives you?

ROBERT CLARKE: Well, I think particularly with Steve Horne you have to look at his history and the development of True Sports Program and the Judd engine (ph) and all that. He's actually maybe more in tune with our kind of program than maybe Rahal/Hogan was. I mean here's the guy that's developed the chassis from the ground up, he's gone through a development program with an engine and he knows exactly what he's up against and what pitfalls might come along. And I think -- plus his background and years of experience in professional racing, he's got a great deal that he can offer us.

Q. It doesn't hurt either that your name is on the valve covers on that engine and all the people who drive V6 Accords kind of get a little kick out of that too.


Q. Are you at something of a disadvantage with only having one team? If they go off from the chassis setup you're kind of lost too, aren't you?

ROBERT CLARKE: Yes, we are. We'd really liked to have more than one car on the track and that's something that we're working towards. We don't have any -- anything decided at this point, but it's -- obviously, you know, your odds of performing well on a race go up with the number of cars that you have on a track.

Q. Is Steve Horne there?


Q. You made your decision two-thirds of the way through last year that you're going to go IndyCar Racing and you were going to go with Mercedes. Can you just talk a little about how difficult was the decision to make the switch to Honda.

STEVE HORNE: Well, Jeremy, we've talked with Honda probably earlier in the year, July/August and I think we realized that the potential is there and it was a matter of getting the timing right in terms of getting on board with them. But, you know, because we weren't a franchise team we weren't able to make a deal, but then really late November, early December when really no other teams for whatever reason, and it's hard for me to understand, but nobody else really wanted to get involved with Honda and they called us. It was a very easy decision to make. Although, we committed to both Lola and Mercedes at the time, both -- particularly Ilmor and to some degree Lola was very cooperative with getting us out of our agreement so that we could switch to Honda and Reynard.

Q. Was there a particular reason why Honda wanted to go with Reynards?

ROBERT CLARKE: I think they made the decision early on to stick with one chassis manufacturer so that they could concentrate their efforts there. To be honest, I'm really glad they did it with Reynard now because it's a dam good little car.

Q. I imagine Adrian Reynard and Rick Ward (ph) were pleased to have another package to work with the Reynard with a Honda as opposed to the other programs you're working on. What's your relationship with them been like?

STEVE HORNE: Well, they've been very good. Obviously we've had a lot of experience working with Lola in the past and Lola is a great company. We've won races with them in IndyCars before, we've won lots of races in Indy Lights, but we had no previous relationship with Reynard. But they're a different company, they produce a very good product. I think they're probably slightly more custom-orientated. And so far it's been very good. I think we've proven it's a dam strong car, we've knocked it a little bit in Miami and that car's already been fixed. No, I'm very pleased with the product they've produced. But I think really in terms of chassis', you know, there's three very competitive ones out there right now.

Q. Tell me about your IndyCar Racing even though the success you had in the Lights, something you, you know, had in your plans down the line of something you always wanted to do?

ROBERT CLARKE: Oh, absolutely. I think when I left True Sports the first thing I said to myself and then I said it publicly that my goal was to get back into IndyCars, and with the other people that left with me from True Sports, and I think there's never any question in my mind that we'd get there. Maybe the route that we got there was slightly different than what we originally planned, but in reality it was pretty close. And I think that Indy Lights in particular was a major factor in our ability to get back into IndyCars. I don't think we could have done it without a couple of years in Indy Lights.

Q. Steve, From an owner's standpoint would you prefer for a rookie driver to start maybe somewhere other than two straight street races with the concrete barriers? And I'm not saying, you know, chicken or anything, but would it be a little easier on a guy like that to like --

STEVE HORNE: I don't know, Tim, I think -- really, I've dealt with a lot of rookie drivers. You know, Bobby Rahal and myself were rookies in 1982 and we went to our first race at Phoenix and that opened their eyes collectively. So no, I don't think so. I think, you know, a racetrack is a racetrack when it comes down to it and all you're doing is stacking yourself up against the opposition. I don't think I'd like to go to Indy as the first race with a rookie driver, but in my mind it was fine, I enjoyed it.

JOHN PROCIDA: Before we get too far into Steve's program, why don't we wrap up with Robert Clarke. Do we have anymore questions for Robert?

Q. Robert, how are you doing?


Q. Good. I wondered if you might give your -- you know, obviously you can't give away too much but just the general impressions of the testing that you've done with the new, new engine, with the aluminum block engine; how it's gone.

ROBERT CLARKE: Well, our main purpose in those tests was to mainly check the durability of the engine, you know. We found that from our -- from the last engine last year that we did hours and hours and hours of dyno testing, and then when we got the engine and the car in competition we found that a lot of things showed up that didn't show up on the dyno. So it was a very important part of our off-season program to get not only the new engine but the upgraded -- last year's engine and the car to see what actually materialized. But the main intent was just to get the engine and the car and put a lot of miles on it and see what we had. And of course we also confirmed what we call the driveability, which is the horsepower and the torque curves and a lot of other things; you know, temperatures and vibrations and that kind of thing. It was our very first so we would consider it more like a shakedown test.

Q. How big is the organization now from Honda supporting these engines?

ROBERT CLARKE: Well, on the American side at Honda Performance we have just 26 people here now. That program will grow -- nearly double in size by the end of the year as we prepare to supply a lot more engines to numerous teams in '96.

Q. Robert, as things have been reported, IRL is going with a 2.2 litre Formula. Has there been any indication on Honda's part whether they'll participate in that program or not?

ROBERT CLARKE: We haven't really formed a position on that. Of course as Honda we would prefer that the two organizations get together and choose one set of rules. We're not particularly interested in producing engines for two different Formula. It would be to our interest to concentrate on just one particular displacement.

Q. Mr. Clark, if I may follow-up on that same question, if you should decide to do a 2.2, about how long a lead time would you require?

ROBERT CLARKE: I've talked to Andrew Craig since early this year, we're already in that window. You know, in order to go from the design stage to actual development work, we need as much time as we could get.

Q. If I may follow-up, several folks have mentioned that you could destroke a 2.65 and make it a 2.2. Is that -- as an engineer yourself, how effective would that be; I mean, obviously it wouldn't be an optimum setup? How effective could it be?

ROBERT CLARKE: It can be done. It's a fairly easy process. But as you said, you're not optimizing the design of the engine. But you've got things that are designed to -- that could handle considerably more horsepower, and so things are kind of overdesigned and carries a lot more weight. So we'd much prefer to take a exclusive, you know, specific design.

Q. You mentioned your staff is going to double in size to supply more teams in '96. Do you have an indication at this point in time or a feel for how many teams you expect to field in '96.

ROBERT CLARKE: I could tell you what we'd like and that would be five to six cars. We feel that would be a nice growth for us.

JOHN PROCIDA: Do we have any questions from our Australian representatives?

Q. Not at this time for Robert Clarke. Thank you. What are you expecting in the growth of cars this year? And one for Surfer's Paradise: Are we going to see a package on anyone in the track this year?

ROBERT CLARKE: Well, the Comptech group very much would like to be racing this year and they're currently meeting Buschels, you know, trying to find sponsorship money to do just that. Steve Horne is also interested in running a second car at Indy and possibly after that and maybe he could shed more light on that.

Q. Steve, could you answer whether you'd be lucky to have a car after Indy; a second car?

STEVE HORNE: I think at Indianapolis we will probably run another car. I think going in there with a rookie. And certainly with -- I don't want to call it the burden, but the owners of Honda in being responsible with Indy in support (unintelligible) but we have an experienced driver there as well as a car alongside of -- I think that's probably going to happen at Indy. If we can run some more races after Indianapolis, I think that's well up in the air, but I think it's unlikely we do all the races after Indy but, you know, thank God for Miami, we all realize that we have a competitive package. And there were times at the weekend that I suddenly started looking in the mirror and saying hey, with a bit more of this and a bit more of that we've got a package that could win this race. And we've got to take advantage of that sooner than later right now.

Q. As far a driver goes Steve, do you have anybody in mind particularly?

STEVE HORNE: Well, at this time of the year it's hard to get an experienced IndyCar driver but there are a couple out there right now that I think could fit the bill right now.

JOHN PROCIDA: Do we have anymore questions for Robert Clarke?

Q. You guys took a bit of a beating, I think, even in the motorsports press toward the end of the season. How do you harness the momentum of what's happened with what I think is a big turn around in the momentum from Miami to push forward to Honda's message and what their intentions are at IndyCar?

ROBERT CLARKE: I'm sorry, I was interrupted, could you ask the question one more time?

Q. What I'd asked is that you guys, meaning Honda, had taken a bit of a beating, even in motorsports press last year by the end of the season, and what I want to know is how do you garner the momentum that you gained from this turn around and the performance in Miami and push forward Honda's intentions in IndyCar; not only just to us but also to the general public and to the people you try to sell your package to?

ROBERT CLARKE: I think, it's really easy if you look at the history of Honda and its racing program. Honda considers racing as almost a culture, and it's a very important part of Honda's overall operations. And, you know, we don't quite agree with what many things that were said last year, but we actually feel that our program was successful. We learned a great deal as you can see from our performance of our engine in Miami. And we feel that as long as we continue to learn both as an organization and as individuals within the organization, basically we're achieving a big chunk of our program.

Q. If I might follow-up to that, do you think the expectations based on your reputation and history particularly with McLaren and Formula I created too high expectations of Honda in the first year at IndyCar.

ROBERT CLARKE: I think that not internally but externally, yes. I think that, you know, even the -- our association with the Rahal/Hogan group we had the kind of discussions where we felt we explained the kind of learning curve that we would likely be in. But I think they were somewhat influenced by Honda's history, you know. But I think if you look carefully at that history you'll see that Honda didn't excel right out of the box. You know, it took several years to develop that kind of dominance.

Q. Thank you.

JOHN PROCIDA: Okay. I want to thank Robert Clarke for being with us tonight. And we will now open the floor for questions for Steve Horne.

Q. We're talking with Andre just before he had to catch an airplane and, you know, he was Indy Lights driver and he was talking about how he was going to drive Nazareth, you know, about the same way he was going to drive an Indy Lights car. What's the difference in setting up for a place like that and setting up a car for a place like Phoenix; and of course you've got two new bits of an equation too, the Firestone tires and the new engines?

STEVE HORNE: Well, first of all with Firestone we've had two years of experience with them at Indy Lights. The Firestone could build a dam good car for Indy Lights and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't build a good car for IndyCar. The decision for us to go to Firestone was actually a very easy one. You know, I'm very glad I did it. In terms of fitting the car up, et cetera, I think just as it is for a driver, Indy Lights is a very good base in all aspects. And I think some of the setups we learned in Indy Lights actually directly correlate to IndyCar. And I guess the thing that we're telling ourselves really on a daily basis is really what we've got here is a big Indy Lights car. So we keep our head on our shoulders and not get overwrought with situations. Obviously some of us have had some IndyCar experience, but we've got a lot of young people on our team and, you know, as we explained to them that it's just an Indy Lights car with a few more bits on it, it makes it a lot easier for them to understand and work on.

Q. Do you see flashes of 1982?

STEVE HORNE: I can't remember back to '82, but to be honest, yes, I do. I think in '82 with a group True Sports -- with a group of good racers -- you know, Bobby had a lot of road racing experience, you know, I had a reasonable amount of CAN-AM, some of the mechanics, but we were real rookies at IndyCar. But once we realized that it was just a race car in a different -- in a different arena I think we came together pretty well. And I would cautiously say I have a sense for that same feeling right now.

Q. Steve, you know, you're coming into a season with a new chassis to you, a new engine to you and you've already had experience with the tires. Was there ever a time where you just kind of step back and went gulp, what am I doing here?

STEVE HORNE: No, I don't think so because when you look at the big package you say okay, everything is new, but when we went through it in a logical fashion, what engine we're going to use, when the opportunity came with Honda, you had to sit back and say for us, boy, that was a real logical decision to do; same with the tires. The chassis, okay, because Honda had basically commissioned Reynard to build a car, there was a little bit of a question mark there. But when you looked at last season's performance obviously Reynard was going to get better. So when I broke it down into all those components and made each decision, they're all logical and that made the big picture logical. And maybe I think different from other people, but I don't see a great degree of risk in it.

Q. Steve, congratulations on a -- I think by what anybody would -- by any standards would say was a very encouraging debut in Miami. And I wondered, I mean, does that -- does that make in some sense the Surfer's Paradise, you know, all the more important to sort of keep that momentum from, you know, from such a good debut? Is it particularly important that you -- that you do well down in Surfer's Paradise to prove to everybody, least of all yourselves perhaps, or most of all yourselves that Miami kind of wasn't just a, you know, flash in the pan or something?

STEVE HORNE: No, I agree, David. It's not pressure, it's expectations and I think, you know, Honda and I are going to have certain expectations of Andre and the team and vice versa. But I think that it's just another race. What happened in Miami wasn't a flash in the pan. There was no way we were consistent enough to be competitive all weekend, but our goal now is to get consistency and then improve the performance. If we can consistently do what we did in Miami, then we ought to get better results and then we need to work on improving our performance. And, you know, it's great being quick on one lap, but that doesn't really do anything at the end of the day.

Q. Steve, when you looked up and down pit row there on Sunday and thinking back to like '92, is it a much more crowded playing field, I mean, you know, as far as like big time teams are concerned?

STEVE HORNE: I think it is, Tim. I think the competition is greater. There's more teams that have a competitive situation. And I think you maybe should ask Penske that because I think he had a bit of a shock over the weekend (LAUGHTER.)

Q. You've got a driver, an engine and a tire company that are on pretty steep learning curves, how do you separate and figure out who's making the progress?

STEVE HORNE: That's a good question, Joe. I learned, you know, fast on our learning curve, but they've done a year's very solid testing, and I've got to thank Pat Patrick and Scott Pruitt, they've done a hell of a job for them. Yeah, the engine's on a learning curve, but I think we internally feel the engine is the least of the things that we have to concern ourselves with right now. It's a very turn-key program. They service us very well. Nothing is ever a problem. They're very reliable, and they make very good horsepower. So the engine is almost something we put to one side. We don't have to worry about that. So really the things we ought to concentrate on is getting the most out of the chassis and coaching Andre. And he's very coachable. He responds very well. I think you heard earlier on that he watched the race on TV and had two pages of notes. Now I don't think many drivers would sit down and do that. So I think the number one thing for us is to really work with Andre and his driving.

Q. From a standpoint of testing there's a depression in the schedule between now and Indianapolis which is putting some restrictions. How aggressive of a testing schedule do you have prior to Indy? And then as a second part to that, what about Indy forward to the end of the season?

STEVE HORNE: Well, there is a piercing restriction in place, and I guess there's pros and cons to that. I don't particularly like it. I don't see a lot of value to it to be honest. The next testing we're going to do is we've got the rookie program coming up at Indy and then we've got one day at Firebird ways before Long Beach, but really the schedule is so tough now that unless you have a separate test team, it's very hard to get some testing in. But we'll do probably, I think, six or seven days after Indy at some of the tracks. But really a lot of our experience is going to come race weekend.

Q. Do you have any comments you'd like to make about the proposed IRL?

STEVE HORNE: I joined CART in 1982. That was a great step forward for me. I very much enjoyed being part of CART and IndyCar. They've had their problems but I think they're democratically drawing this series into probably the greatest international motorsports series in the world. I have absolutely no interest in IRL. I have a deep interest in the Indianapolis 500 and I wish they'd just go away.

JOHN PROCIDA: Do we have anymore questions for Steve Horne?

Q. What goals do you have perhaps, Steve, for the year? What would you be pleased with?

STEVE HORNE: I think as a team we've set some goals that I'd like to win Rookie of the Year. And that sounds a pretty low standard, but when then when you look at the weekend that the rookies you're racing with, it's actually racing for the lead of the race. So maybe to win Rookie of the Year you've got to win some races right now. We'd like to win Rookie of the Year at Indy and consistently qualify and finish in the top 10. And those are the goals we've set ourselves and hopefully grow to a two-car team in 1996. And if we can achieve all those things I'll be happy.

Q. Coming back into IndyCars after some time off, is there anything that you told yourself you're going to do different this time or was it even that much of a thought process for you?

STEVE HORNE: No, I think maybe I've mellowed a little bit I think maybe to concentrate on the things that I'm good at and leave the things that maybe I'm not that good at to other people. And I think this time around I've surrounded myself with some very good partners and some very good people on the team. And, you know, my goal is to get the best out of them. And I think rather than being a one-man band that I was perhaps in the past I'm less exposed, I think, to some of the things that maybe I wasn't that good at making decisions at.

Q. You mentioned surrounding yourself with some good people. Can you comment on your lead engineering staff?

STEVE HORNE: Certainly. I think, you know, a lot of the credit to the performance of the team on a day-to-day basis has got to go to Jeff Ocean (ph). Jeff has done a tremendous job as team manager, and he's more than a team manager, he's a qualified engineer and he's done a great job in, you know, getting a young group of people together and refining and focusing. And we've got Don Haladay (ph) as our engineer working on the car. And Don and I have worked together really from a piece of carbon fiber up to a race car, and I think Don worked with us in Indy Lights last year with Andre. I think, he's enjoying himself a lot in race engineering. And we're just some older guys having a bit of fun now, and that's the bit I like. And I enjoy -- I really enjoy working with rookie drivers because I think that's something that maybe we are good at because they respond well, there's not a lot of egos involved and it's fun watching their talent grow.

Q. You've got to be encouraged looking down pit row and see Jacques winning the race and looking at the -- to choose from when you put your IndyCar together.

STEVE HORNE: Absolutely. I think Steve Robertson did a tremendous job for us last year at Indy Lights, and I think he's a great young driver as well. And I certainly hope to see him in the future. Those who say there's not enough American drivers in IndyCars, I think that's rubbish. There's some dam good young ones right now, and I think the fact that they get to race against some of the best up-and-coming young drivers in the world makes IndyCars an even better series.

JOHN PROCIDA: Do you have any questions from Australia?

Q. Steve, I do have one question for you. You're returning to an area of the world that your from, does that hold any significance for you?

STEVE HORNE: It certainly does, yeah. I enjoying going to Australia. I'm going to stop off in New Zealand on the way down there and visit some relatives. And there's always a lot of people in Australia that I've known in the past, you know, having raced down there and no question the people are very friendly, that they're really big motorsports fans. I like the track. It's a good racetrack. There's some good passing area there. I like the people and I like the people on the beach (LAUGHTER.) And you know the other thing is they have real beer down there (LAUGHTER.)

Q. Do you care to comment to that (LAUGHTER.)

JOHN PROCIDA: Any last questions for Steve Horne? Thank you Steve. Thank you very much for joining us. For those on the line, I want to let you know that next week we will have Gregg Moore, the Indy Lights winner from Miami and that will be followed up the following week with Danny Sullivan. Thank you all for joining us tonight --

Q. John?


Q. One question before you ring off.


Q. Could you give us a quick run down on when the equipment is being flown down to Australia; where it leaves from, where it comes back to and so forth?

JOHN PROCIDA: You are talking to the wrong person here. Sorry.

CHRIS NIXON: The equipment will be leaving Indianapolis on Friday/Saturday, and we'll be bringing down two 747 freighters of cars and freight and some personnel landing in Australia I guess around 4 or 5 a.m. Sunday our time. And they will be followed by the major group of personnel on a specially configured 747 arriving into Australia on Monday morning at the same time with the main --

JOHN PROCIDA: Somehow there's some interruption there but we're still with you.

CHRIS NIXON: Okay. I'll run through that answer again. The IndyCar freight for Australia will leave from Indianapolis on Saturday I understand. It would be picked out on the next couple of days. We will be bringing down two 747 freighters also carrying some personnel at approximately 50 cars, perhaps a few more. At this stage we understand we've got about 26 starters for the IndyCar Australia race. Those freighters will be arriving into Brisbane on Sunday morning around 5 a.m. our time to be followed the same time the next day by the major part of the team personnel on another specially configured 747. So the main personnel will be coming on a quarter flight LAX departing Sunday arriving here Monday. And beyond that I think we will have some drivers coming in on personal flights.

Q. Where does the equipment return?

CHRIS NIXON: The equipment will be returning overnight Sunday. I think that the gear will be picked up almost before the race finishes and there won't be much to do once the race has ended except to pallet the cars. They will go up to Brisbane that night and they will be gone early Monday morning. We have a pretty slick operation for that and you might be interested to know that the freight consultants we are using this year, the vehicles are being carried in the deal with Fed Ex (ph), but the freight consultants we are using are a Sidney based company called Gibson, G-I-B-S-O-N, Freight International who also are the freight contractors for the Australian Formula I Grand Prix in Adelaide and also the worldwide contractors for the world 500cc, 250cc and 125cc motorcycle championships. This is an Australian that's developed a special expertise in moving racing equipment around the world by air. So the IndyCar Company believes that we're going to make substantial gains, substantial financial gains this year through improved efficiency in the way we carry the gear.

Q. Do you have an approximate ballpark dollar figure in US dollars on what that would cost?

CHRIS NIXON: Yeah. We are looking for the freighters - I can't give you a cost -- an estimated cost on the personnel, but the freighters I believe we are looking at around about 1.2 million US.

JOHN PROCIDA: Thanks Chris and thank you everyone else for joining us tonight.

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